Senator Blair. -- Then the Sunday law could not have been the cause of the Inquisition.
Mr. Jones. -- The power which embodies the Inquisition still continues, and its emissaries have been in this country defending the Inquisition. That same power is now grasping for the control of the civil law, and the same causes generally produce the same effects.
Senator Blair. -- And the removal of the causes removes the effects with them.
Mr. Jones. -- Sometimes.
Senator Blair. -- Therefore the Sunday laws were not the cause of the Inquisition, unless the Inquisition still exists.
Mr. Jones. -- No, the Sunday laws did not cause the Inquisition.
Senator Blair. -- I understood you to say that it did.
Mr. Jones. -- I say, through that the church received the power to make the principle and the work of the Inquisition effective. A certain exercise of power may be forbidden, and yet the means by which the power was obtained may not be forbidden. In other words, the power which was obtained through the deception of Sunday laws, may be prohibited in certain things, and yet allowed in many other things.
Senator Blair. -- The Lord made the Sabbath, and governed the Jewish nation for nearly three thousand years with a Sabbath. Do you think the Sabbath was for the good of the Jewish people, or for their injury?
Mr. Jones. -- It was established for the good of the human race.
Senator Blair. -- Including the Jewish people?
Mr. Jones. -- Yes, sir.
Senator Blair. -- It was established as a part of the civil administration.
Mr. Jones. -- But the church and the State were one.
Senator Blair. -- Therefore what we call the civil administration was included in that theocracy.
Mr. Jones. -- The church and the State were one. They were united, and it was a theocracy.
Senator Blair. -- If the administration of the Sabbath during these three thousand years, at least, was for the good of the Jews and the human race, why will not the Sabbath be good for the Jews and the human race since the time of Christ, as well as before?
Mr. Jones. -- It is for the good of the human race.
Senator Blair. -- The civil law must administrate it if it is done. Then we will get no Sabbath now under our division of powers of government, unless we have the Sabbath recognized and enforced by the State authority?
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly we have a Sabbath.
Senator Blair. -- Your proposition is to strike out the Sabbath from the Constitution and condition of society in these modern times?
Mr. Jones. -- No, sir.
Senator Blair. -- Certainly so far as its existence and enactment and enforcement by law are concerned.
Mr. Jones. -- Yes, by civil law.
Senator Blair. -- It was enforced in what we call the civil conduct of men under that theocratic form of government for at least three thousand years.
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly.
Senator Blair. -- Now the observance of the Sabbath depends upon a compulsory observance of the law.
Mr. Jones. -- Not at all.
Senator Blair. -- It required the law of God which he enforced by death, by stoning men to death when they violated it, and we have the Sabbath day only by virtue of what we call the civil law, which is equally a part of God's law.
Mr. Jones. -- That government was not organized specially to enforce the Sabbath.
Senator Blair. -- They stoned men to death who violated the law.
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly; and likewise for the transgression of the other commandments.
Senator Blair. -- God enforced it, in other words, by human means.
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly; my answer to all that is that that was a theocracy, -- a union of church and state. The church was the State, and the State was the church.
Senator Blair. -- You say now that there is no State to enforce it?
Mr. Jones. -- I say that no government can enforce the Sabbath, or those things which pertain to God, except a theocratic government -- a union of church and state. Therefore I say that if you establish such a law as is here proposed, you lead directly to a union of church and state. The logic of the question demands it, and that is where it will end, because the law cannot be enforced otherwise. These gentlemen say they do not want a union of church and state. What they mean by church and state is, for the State to select one particular denomination, and make it the favorite above all other denominations. That is a union of church and state according to their idea. But a union of church and state was formed by Constantine when he recognized Christianity as the religion of the Roman empire. Everybody knows that that was a union of church and state, and that it ended in the papacy. A union of church and state is where the ecclesiastical power controls the civil power, and uses the civil power in its own interests. That is where this movement will end, and that is one of the reasons why we oppose it.
Senator Blair. -- You say the church and state separated shall not do those proper things which the church and state always did when united in the theocracy?
Mr. Jones. -- No, sir.
Senator Blair. -- Then why do you say that the state --
Mr. Jones. -- I did not mean to deny your proposition; I think the way you intended, I mean "Yes," because I certainly do say that the church and state separated shall do those proper things which were done when they were united in the theocracy.
Senator Blair. -- If in this division of the powers of government into church and state, you exclude from the powers of the church the establishment and enforcement and regulation of the Sabbath, why do you not necessarily, if the Sabbath is a good thing, pass it over to the control of the State?
Mr. Jones. -- Because if the church will not recognize it and preserve it, the State cannot compel people to do it. The State that attempts it is bound to fail.
Senator Blair. -- Then you necessarily take the ground that God did wrong in the enforcement of the Sabbath during those three thousand years when his government was both church and state.
Mr. Jones. -- No, sir. If God would come himself to govern, and make himself governor, as he did of Israel, he could enforce the law as he did there. But until God does that, we deny the right of all the churches or anybody else, to do it.
Mr. Senator Blair. -- Even if it is for the good of society?
Mr. Jones. -- What they say is for the good of society is for the ruin of society.
Senator Blair. -- Do you understand that it is the church or the State that is making this law?
Mr. Jones. -- It is the State that is doing it, just as Constantine did it, to satisfy the churches.
Senator Blair. -- It may or may not satisfy the churches. The churches give their reasons here, which may be right or wrong, for the establishment of the Sabbath -- for this Sunday legislation in all the States. The State, the whole people, make the law. You say that the whole people shall not make a good law because the churches ask for it.
Mr. Jones. -- I say the whole people shall not make a bad law, even though the churches do demand it; for any civil law relating to God is a bad law.
Senator Blair. -- Then what God did for three thousand years for the good of the Jews and the human race, was wrong?
Mr. Jones. -- No, sir; it was right.
Senator Blair. -- Then why not continue it?
Mr. Jones. -- Because he has discontinued that kind of government.
Senator Blair. -- We have done nothing in the world to divide the powers of government into those of church and state. We say those departments shall not interfere with each other.
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly.
Senator Blair. -- Here and in the States we are trying to run the civil parts. We have taken jurisdiction of a portion of what God has entire jurisdiction, as to the church and state in the civil relations of men. The entire society does that. We put the sovereignty into the hands of everybody except women, and some of us are trying to do that. We have the same subject-matter, the good of society under our control, which under the theocracy was united into both church and state. If you do not let the State continue to do what was essential to society then, and is now, you are striking at one of the great ends for which government exists.
Mr. Jones. -- Not at all; because God has discontinued that kind of government.
Senator Blair. -- He has not discontinued the necessity of laws for the regulation of society.
Mr. Jones. -- He has in that way.
Senator Blair. -- No; it is just as necessary that there should be a Sabbath now for the good of man, as when God made and enforced the law by his direct supervision under a theocracy.
Mr. Jones. -- But no government but a theocracy can enforce such laws.
Senator Blair. -- Then unless we have a theocracy, we shall have no Sabbath.
Mr. Jones. -- We shall have no laws regulating the Sabbath.
Senator Blair. -- The Sabbath did not descend to the Jews and to all mankind, because there was a theocratic form of government among the Jews. How did the Sabbath come to mankind at large, when there was no theocratic form of government?
Mr. Jones. -- Those nations never kept it. Nobody but the Jews ever kept it.
Senator Blair. -- They could have kept it, because you say the Sabbath existed for all; not for the Jews alone, but for the human race.
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly, but if they did not keep it, it would do no good.
Senator Blair. -- It did not exist for good, then?
Mr. Jones. -- Certainly; a thing may exist for my good, and I may refuse to use it, as thousands do the salvation of Christ.
Senator Blair. -- I was taking your statement as true that it did exist for good outside of the Jews.
Mr. Jones. -- I said it was for the good of man. The Saviour said it was for the good of man. The Saviour died for the good of man.
Senator Blair. -- You would abolish the Sabbath, anyway?